DevOps in security departments

Nirmal Mehta: I think that IT security is very important, but I also know that we can very easily underestimate how many people don't give a damn about security right now. And that's because, to many people, the problem of security is just the same as the problem of pollution. IT security and climate change are in almost the exact same position from that perspective: there's a negative externality to what happens.

Let me explain. If Equifax, the consumer credit reporting agency, gets hacked, which it did, and all our credit information is breached, but there is no cost associated to Equifax for doing that, then it's the same thing as if I build a power plant and I don't pay the price of the pollution I give out. This is a negative externality that is not associated with the cost, and it's a situation that doesn't fix itself without the government. That's essentially what government is for, to eliminate...